Matthew Pohl Deposition

Captain, we just met. If you don't understand my questions, if you want me to rephrase, just let me know, okay?

Yes.

I assume you've been deposed before for something or another?

I believe maybe once, like, 20 years ago or so.

Okay. How -- how long have you been with the sheriff's department?

Twenty-four and a half years.

Okay. And when -- when did you obtain the title of captain?

2021.

Okay. And was that an appointed position?

There's a testing process. The sheriff can pick who he wants out of the top three, so it wasn't just appointed.

Got it.

-- a written test, seniority points, and then there's also an oral interview.

Okay. Who did the oral interview?

What was it? Jim Spadafore was on it. He's the current undersheriff.

Yep. Was the sheriff on it?

The sheriff was not on it.

Okay.

I don't remember the other two.

And prior to captain you were a lieutenant?

Yes.

Okay. When did you get -- when did you first get to know Sheriff King?

Well, I was hired in 2000, so he had been hired prior to me. I don't know when our paths crossed, but soon thereafter, I would assume.

Okay. So you've known him for quite sometime?

Yes.

Are you friends?

Yes.

Okay. Socialize from time to time?

Yes.

Okay. You stay in close touch with him?

Well, we work at --

Right.

Next door to each other so ....

Literally your offices are next door to each other?

Yes.

I assume you text, you e-mail, you call?

Yes.

Okay. And that's probably about work issues as well as other things that might just come up?

Correct.

Okay. And what documents were you asked to produce in this case? We were seeking certain relevant materials. Were you asked to produce anything?

Yes.

What were you asked to produce?

There's a long list.

Okay.

I don't recall everything because they keep coming in so ....

I hear you. Did you produce some material?

I produced everything that I could produce.

What do you recall that you had in your possession that was relevant that you produced?

The internal report, the --

By internal report -- let me interrupt you if you don't

Yes.

Okay.

Policies. I mean, there's other documents provided I didn't -- which I didn't -- I know our secretary provided your firm --

Right.

-- lots of documents.

Okay. Have you been involved with drafting policies or putting them together or reviewing them since you've been in your current role?

Yes.

What is your responsibility in that regard?

Well, currently we have partnered with Lexipol, so we are redoing our whole policy and procedure. So I meet weekly with a representative and we go over our current policies as they update them and format them in their wording. This might be a yearlong process, so we are -- that's the big project that we're -- that I'm involved with with policy so far.

What I've been given I assume is the previous policies that have not been changed yet from Lexipol?

Yes.

Okay. Were you involved in any of those policies and procedures?

As far as?

Drafting, changing or were they already in place when you got to the department? I've been given written policies. I'm just trying to figure out whether you had a role in creating those?

So I would -- for the most part all policies were already in place prior to me being appointed or promoted to captain. If and when a discrepancy would arise that we needed to edit the policy or to change policy then, yes, that would be up to me. We've also made new policies since I attained captain. One that comes to mind would be, like, the body cam policy. We never had body-worn camera before that, so that was a brand new policy that I was in charge of --

When did you get the body-worn cameras, approximately?

I think it was 2021, approximately.

So what is your policy on body-worn cameras that you had a hand in?

It's quite lengthy so --

Give me the rules on when it's to be used.

In contact with the public, during investigations. It's not to be used with -- amongst private conversations with other officers. It's not to be used to surreptitiously record another employee. It's not to be used inside the building or personal things like meal

Did you -- I assume you supported the sheriff when he ran for election recently last time, last election cycle?

Yes.

Did you -- were you a contributor?

With money?

Yeah.

Yes.

Roughly, how much did you contribute? I mean, the records are out there. I can --

No, I know. A hundred would be my guess.

Did you play -- I assume you played a role in helping him with his campaign and, you know, greeting the public and making an appearance?

I put out signs. And I also on the day of -- I think he ran twice effectively. The first time around I believe would be the primary. On one of those dates, yeah, I wore a T-shirt. It was at a polling station.

Okay. But you were right there with him, I assume, as captain throughout the process when he made appearances and attended political events, fundraising and the like?

I attended a fundraising event that he hosted. Now, I know he attended meetings, like, the Republican Party meetings. He probably met with other dignitaries. I know he had other fundraising events throughout the county, but I was not right there with him attending those.

Okay. And were you working with him on both his 2020 and 2024 elections in a similar manner?

I believe I probably -- I guess I don't recall as far as my involvement. I certainly attended his -- the fundraising campaigns that he held in both of those.

Okay. How long have you known Marcus King?

I don't want to guess when I met him, but at least ten years, if not longer.

How did you get to know him?

I think I met him first through his brother.

The sheriff --

The sheriff.

-- for the record.

Right. And his other brother, Mike, before he was employed at the sheriff's office.

And did you meet him through the sheriff? You met Marcus through the sheriff before Marcus actually came on board?

Yes.

What was that? Did you -- what, were you guys doing an activity together or something like that?

I had -- I had attended their deer camp several times up north in Lewiston, Michigan. We had taken several trips to Cleveland for an Italian festival.

Who is we?

Myself, Mat King, Marc King, their older brother, Michael John. And there may have been some other people that drifted in and out of that group.

Okay.

Their dad would have been part of those trips.

And that was to where?

Either Lewiston, Michigan, they had a cottage up there, or Cleveland, Ohio was a Italian festival.

Is that something you all go to, you know, regularly, the Italian festival?

I can't remember the last time I went.

Okay. But the Lewiston deer hunting is kind of a regular activity?

Likewise, I -- I can't remember the last time I went. They've since sold that --

Okay.

-- cottage.

So but that's likely how you got to know Marcus before he came on board in the department?

Yes.

Okay. And I assume you've been friends with him over time?

Yes.

Okay. And do your families socialize together from time to time?

No.

Do you socialize with him from time to time?

From time to time, yes.

Okay. And I assume you text with him, as well, calls, e-mails and the like?

Text, yes.

Okay. Do you have a work phone or your own personal phone that you use?

Both.

Okay. And do you use your personal phone when you're communicating with the sheriff or Marcus?

Yes, I have.

Okay. Do you delete material on your phone?

Yes.

What's your deletion policy?

I don't think we have a policy that covers deletion.

What's your personal practice?

I just like to periodically clean things up, both work e-mail, phones.

Okay. Do you have the same phone today that you had in 2022?

Yes.

Okay. Have you deleted material that would be relevant to the circumstances involved in this case?

Yes.

Okay. What have you deleted?

Whatever text messages or phone calls that I'd referenced in my internal report, I no longer have those on my phone.

Okay. So I assume you were texting with the sheriff and/or with Marcus beginning on or around 11/6/2022; correct? Things were happening and, you know, at the time of the arrest and there was some communication; correct?

I don't know if I had text communication with either of those two --

Uh-huh.

-- with regards to the arrest.

Okay. Phone?

I did have a phone call with Mat King that Sunday morning.

Okay. And what was that about?

Well, I had awoken and missed a call and/or voicemail from Scott Jones as to the arrest of Marc King. When I

Okay. And you continued to stay in touch with it -- with him on this; correct?

Yes.

His brother's arrest?

Yes.

Okay. Did you also communicate with Marcus King on Sunday?

I don't believe so.

Or a couple of days thereafter?

I don't know if I had any phone communication with Marc. I'm sure if I'd seen him maybe some words of encouragement, but I don't know if I had any phone communication with Marc over this.

Okay. And would you have used your work phone for any of the communications you would have had with either of the Kings, Marcus or Mat?

If it's work related I would use my work phone.

And what's the retention policy on that?

We don't have a policy.

Okay. Who's the carrier for the phones?

I don't know.

Who's your carrier for your --

I don't know.

Verizon?

We have several carriers. I don't know which plan mine is under.

Okay. When is the first time you became a law enforcement officer?

1999.

And where was that?

I had worked, like, part-time in two, like, village of Breckenridge and St. Louis, Michigan, prior to getting full-time employment for Arenac County Sheriff's Office. That would have been -- I believe in the spring, early summertime is when I probably got full-time employment with them.

And then you moved over to the sheriff's office?

Well, I worked, you know, let's say a year and a half or so and then before I got hired by St. Clair County in August of 2000.

Okay. How did you happen to get hired by St. Clair County?

Just through the application process.

Okay. What documents have you reviewed to get ready to give your testimony today to refresh your recollection?

I went over the internal report. Some policies that were referenced in the internal report, some text

Do you have a job description, a written job description?

Yes.

Okay. Would you tell me what your job -- main job responsibilities are? Just walk us through them.

So as the road patrol captain I would oversee things police related. Our agency is split between the jail and then the road division, so --

Let me interrupt you, if you don't mind.

Yes.

As of 2022 how many road patrol staff did you have and how many jail? What was the split, roughly?

Roughly 80 sworn police officers that I would oversee on roadside. The jail side I'm not certain. It would be more. There would be more jail staff, though.

Okay. Okay. So I'm sorry, go ahead with your list of responsibilities.

So as of now I oversee road division, which would include your uniformed police officers, the records division, which is our service bureau that types reports or handles any front counter business. It's now called the criminal investigation division. That would entail, like, the detective bureau, our drug task force. We

Okay. And do the lieutenants report directly to you?

Yes.

How many lieutenants are there?

So we have a lieutenant at the drug task force, a lieutenant at the detective bureau, a lieutenant at the marine patrol and then four lieutenants on the road.

Okay. And when -- do you oversee these individuals' performance?

Not directly, since I don't work hand in hand with them to see how they're performing, but, yes, it would be my responsibility to address any shortcomings of performance if any issues arose.

What else are your main job responsibilities?

Besides that, like, we covered -- I also -- currently my main job responsibility is dealing with this policy project with Lexipol. Discipline often would come to my attention, either directly or indirectly.

How -- I mean, is that your -- are you responsible for discipline? Are you the designated individual?

I wouldn't say that I was the designated individual. Depending at the level of discipline meted out it can be handled at a shift level or it may arise to my level or

Okay. And do you report to the undersheriff?

Yes.

Is that who your direct supervisor is?

Well, in the chain of command the undersheriff would be first and then the sheriff, so I would report to both of them.

And is -- is there somebody else that's responsible for -- you did an investigation here. You're calling it, I think, a memo or an investigation; is that accurate?

Yes.

Do you do all of the investigations?

No, I do not.

Who else does them?

We try to -- it would depend on who the investigation is on. Sometimes rank would play a role in that. It might be -- depends on the member of the department, who do they report to, but we would prefer that lieutenants do investigations of members on their shift or could be anyone of lower rank. If it was a lieutenant or higher then it makes sense myself as the captain that I should do that investigation so a lieutenant wouldn't be investigating a fellow lieutenant of the same rank.

Okay. And Marcus -- Marcus's title was what, Marcus King in 2022? He was a deputy?

Deputy, yes.

Who did he report to directly?

I don't recall which shift he worked on.

Okay.

I believe it was a split shift, so he could have reported to multiple -- multiple supervisors in one 12-hour block.

Okay. So with regard to discipline or investigations it could have involved a sergeant?

Yes, a sergeant would have control and command over him to discipline him.

Same or it could be a lieutenant?

Correct.

Okay. What else -- so you explained your job duties. You from time to time get involved in investigations. In any given year how many investigations are you responsible for, would you say? Let's talk about 2024. How many investigations were you involved in in 2024?

You're talking about internal investigations for employee discipline?

Yes, of course. BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

Not, you know, in your professional capacity as a law enforcement officer.

I don't know if I did any in 2024.

Okay. There were investigations, though, but not done by you?

Yeah, there's -- we have internal investigations, safe to say, probably every calendar year even between the road patrol and/or jail.

Okay. So nothing you can recall that you were involved in in 2024?

Not that I can recall.

Okay. How about 2023?

Don't recall that either.

How about 2022?

Yes.

What were you involved in in 2022?

Scott Jones internal investigation and Marcus King internal investigation.

Okay. Anybody else that year?

I don't recall.

How about 2021?

I don't recall either.

You don't recall any in 2021?

I don't know if I did any in 2021, as well.

Okay. Can you remember any other investigations other

Yes.

Who else do you recall? A

Roughly when was that?

So it was since 2021. I just -- I don't know what year --

Okay.

-- what that was.

What was that about?

Just for the record we have to designate part of these confidential if we believe they should be confidential. And I would like to designate the record confidential. You don't need to do anything else or create a separate record or anything, just put a label on it.

Make a note, yeah. BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

Go ahead.

It had to do with his time, if he was leaving work early, coming in late, things of that nature, extended lunchtime at his home.

What was your -- what was your title at that time?

If it was post 2021 it would have been captain.

You're not -- you're not sure?

It was -- I believe it was in that -- that timeframe.

And he was a detective?

Yes.

So why did you get involved in that one?

I don't recall specifically. I think it's probably because I had had maybe easier access to pull time cards and watch, like, video of people coming and going from the employee parking lot and/or to make sure his lieutenant didn't have any culpability in this, as well.

Okay. Anybody else you can recall other than what you've now mentioned where you were involved in an investigation?

Not offhand. THE COURT REPORTER: Could we go off for a second?

Sure. (Discussion held off the record)

Does it -- Todd does it include the outcomes of the investigations or just the investigation itself?

Yes, and the outcome. So basically I want to do just that part. Again, our protective order just all it prevents is people from sharing it publicly; right, so you can still use it in court filings.

Okay. Got it.

But it's a fairly simple protective order.

Okay. BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

Who have you been -- okay. So when somebody does an internal investigation, whether it's the few you've mentioned or anybody else, who's involved in discipline? Have you been involved in making disciplinary decisions?

Well, ultimately it's up to the sheriff for discipline, but, yes, I've been involved with discussion of, hey, what might be the appropriate discipline, what have we done before in a similar circumstance.

Okay. What discipline do you recall most recently that you've been involved in?

I'm certain there's been something since this investigation. I'm drawing a blank right now.

Since the Scott Jones investigation?

Yes, ma'am.

Nothing you can recall?

Not at this moment.

What role have you played in discipline? To the extent you can recall ever doing so, what would your role have been?

My role has been to author statement of charges and then

What --

As far as the formal hearing.

What's a statement of charges?

You know, on this date your activity was A, B, C, this violated policy such and such. That would be the statement of charges.

And is that read to the person?

Yes. Actually, I just -- I did -- I know the last one I read.

Okay. What was that?

Was part of -- and this would be another confidential.

Okay. Just let's use somebody's initials. A

Okay.

And let's go off the record for a second. (Discussion held off the record) BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

Okay. So what happened with this individual?

It came to light that he had been displaying some questionable behavior. We looked into it. We interviewed fellow deputies that were present. Looked into policies, what might -- may have been violated.

Uh-huh.

Those were the two main policies, and as a result of that he received discipline.

What was his discipline?

I believe it was a three-day unpaid suspension, to the best of my knowledge.

He'd sexually harassed somebody?

He had made comments --

Uh-huh.

-- that were inappropriate.

Okay.

That were in violation of our harassment policy.

Okay. And what was your role there? I'm not sure I understand that.

So my role in that was typing up the statement of charges, which we put on the formal letterhead for the formal disciplinary hearing, then reading those verbatim, and then the deputy and the union official get a copy of those.

Okay. So you typed up a document at the onset of the

No.

No?

At the conclusion of the investigation.

Okay. And so you just typed up the conclusion of the investigation. You were not involved in the investigation or you were?

No, I didn't interview him.

So somebody gave you an investigation report?

Correct.

Okay. And then you were involved in the discipline or you weren't, the three days?

I typed the document up --

Uh-huh.

-- the statement of charges. That was my involvement as far as the disciplinary hearing.

And then who did the discipline? Who made the disciplinary, the three days?

Ultimately that's decided by the sheriff.

So you type up of the statement of charges. That goes where, to the person that's being investigated?

That goes to -- so I would read that verbatim and then we give a copy to the deputy who's involved and then his union representation.

Then he gets to respond; is that correct, to the

Yes.

Okay. And that's given to him in writing, he and the union can review it and can respond?

We leave the room. We allow them to review that document, and then they have an opportunity to respond to that document.

Okay. Is this in writing?

Their response?

Yes.

It could be.

Okay. What happens after you leave the room and they look at the document that has the charges? What's the next thing that happens?

When they're ready they come out of the room and get us.

And then what happens?

It's up to them if they want to make a response. And they don't have to.

Right. Can they say, We want to put something in writing responding to this?

They could.

Okay.

That didn't happen in this case, though.

Okay. So other than this one, what other discipline -- I'll use the term -- have you been involved in?

All right. What other discipline have you -- okay. So you've told me that in this case you type up -- not our case, but the one you just described, you typed up the charges and you left -- left it to the union and the officer to review. Have there been other occasions when you've done that?

Yes.

Okay. What other occasions do you recall?

Well, any occasion -- if I was involved in that disciplinary process, that formal discipline, I would type up the statement of charges.

Okay. So in 2024 how many times were you involved in the discipline?

Well, that case.

That we just talked about?

That we just talked about, yes.

Okay. Anybody else in 2024?

Not that comes to mind, no.

2023?

Likewise.

2022?

Marc King and Scott Jones.

Okay. Anybody else --

However --

-- from 2022?

I just want to say, however I was never involved into the disciplinary hearing with Scott Jones, so I never --

You were never involved in a disciplinary. What's a disciplinary hearing?

When we mete out discipline, so there was -- I never prepared a statement of charges for Scott Jones. For Marcus King I did and I was involved in both investigations.

What's a statement of charges include?

Like I said, I would -- we would list, hey, on this date you did such and such violating said policy. That would be the statement of charges.

Okay. Well, you have -- you have statements in Scott Jones's -- your memo or your investigation as to rule violations where you made findings.

At the end of it?

Yeah.

Yes.

So is that different than what you just described for the other employee?

So that is part of the internal investigation

Right.

-- for the Scott Jones, where I made a conclusion at the very end --

Yeah.

-- that in my opinion he violated --

Rules.

-- these three policies.

Yes.

Yes.

Okay. So is that different than what you're talking about?

Yes.

Okay. What's the difference?

The statement of charges would literally say "Statement of Charges" on top of the document. We would put it on the letterhead. It would have that narrative, it would have the policy violated and the deputy violated that policy. That is a separate document from the internal investigation.

Okay. Again, if you don't mind, give me the name of that document.

Statement of charges.

Okay. All right. So sitting here today, you can remember one time you've done a statement of charges.

Marcus King would have a statement of charges.

Right.

This individual we're talking about with the initials would have a statement of charges.

Okay. That's the sex harassment one?

That was one of the policies he violated.

Right. Right. Okay. Anybody else?

I don't recall the discipline with the other individual we mentioned, the detective. But anybody that would have received formal discipline above and beyond just a written, like, a written warning when we're -- when we're talking about, like, suspension, they would give a statement of charges.

Okay. And you have many levels of discipline; correct?

Yes, there are layers of discipline.

Right. Okay. So I want to finish off asking you about your duties. It doesn't sound like you have a formal role in the discipline process, but you are occasionally called in to handle these matters; is that correct?

Yes. I would liken, like, the vice principal in a school is usually involved in discipline, but also teachers can discipline the students within their classroom. I think it's kind of like there's many

What's on your written job description? Is there a line item involved in your role of discipline in your job description?

I don't know if there is.

Okay. This started off because I was asking you about a list of your job duties, your formal job duties. And you told me about supervision, you know, of the jail of road patrol.

I don't supervise the jail.

Okay. Not at all?

Those are --

Who's the --

-- separate bargaining units. I have nothing to do with the jail.

Who's the highest level person overseeing the jail personnel?

Jail administrator.

So that's separate and apart from your world?

Yes.

So finish off for me your job duties as you understand them.

I think -- I mean, just I broadly covered, I think, most of them as far as the divisions that I oversee.

Okay.

Road patrol, records division, criminal investigation division, and the marine division.

Who oversees HR?

I don't know who -- the former HR director is no longer there. She retired so I'm not sure who the HR director is now.

Okay. But do you know who supervises that role? Is that the sheriff?

Oh, no.

Who supervises HR?

Ultimately would be the county administrator, Kerry Hepting.

So you don't have an HR -- you don't have an HR office in your sheriff's department, it's a county office; is that accurate?

There's an off-site county human resource office, yes. And then effectively since, you know, the sheriff's an elected official he's kind of a co-employer so in a way we kind of act like our own HR at times in-house.

In what regard?

We would handle -- you know, our secretary would handle FMLA things or, you know, injuries, on-duty injuries. We handle our own discipline. We have -- we don't deal with HR as far as internal operations that I'm aware of.

And that's true with the officers under you, as well; is that correct?

As far as -- I'm not sure what you're saying.

Dealing directly with HR.

We deal with HR, I think just in my experience would be limited to payroll issues, you know, the medical benefits yearly, the re-enrollment for medical benefits. It'd be things of that nature.

Okay. What else is on your formal list of job duties or have we just covered it? Go ahead.

Other than overseeing the command staff and ultimately overseeing those different divisions, I don't know what I would be leaving out.

Okay. Are you on the road at all?

No.

You're in an office?

Yes.

Okay. Do you have paperwork obligations that are your responsibility as compared to people under you?

Yes.

What are those?

Some of the things that I review would be use of force reports, pursuit reports. I would handle damaged county property reports. These are all things that are authored prior to they get -- they get to my desk, but I

Sure. Okay.

I'm not directly involved in authoring police reports, per se. These are all just kind of office work that I do.

Do you review police reports?

From time to time.

Okay. My client has a job description; is that correct?

I'm sorry, what?

My client, Scott Jones, has a job description; is that accurate?

When he was employed, yes, he had one.

Okay. Are you familiar with it?

Not specifically.

Do you have an extra copy, Liz? BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

Just a couple of questions on it. I'll give you a copy.

For sure.

And do all the officers have a job description?

So we would have two job descriptions.

Excuse me for one second. Did you bring stickies? THE COURT REPORTER: I did. (Deposition Exhibit No. 1 marked for

So that's Exhibit 1, Captain. Does that form look familiar to you? You've seen those before, just in general?

I've seen these before in general, yes.

Okay. And does everybody have a job description, as far as you're aware?

Through the county they should, yes.

Okay. Okay. So this is the job description for Scott Jones; correct?

For the title of lieutenant, yes.

Yep. And I'm just going to run through these with you. So the first one is a position summary that he coordinates law enforcement activities with assigned area, ensuring goals and assignments are met. Participates in police -- difficult police and investigative problems and instructs subordinate officers and methods. That's generally the summary of the job; correct?

As it's described here, yes.

Okay. Then we go through the duties and responsibilities, provide counseling and guidance to subordinates. I suppose that has to do with law enforcement activities and their job duties; is that

Yes.

Okay. Next is, Responds to the scene of all serious accidents or crimes of a serious nature. So a lieutenant is expected to respond to a scene under these circumstances; correct?

Yes.

The next one is, Assume command at investigations or emergency situations in the absence of undersheriff or sheriff. That's one of the duties that he has to take on and appear in these situations; correct?

Correct.

Next is, Inspects the work of common staff and subordinates by personal observation in the field and through written reports. So this is supervision of subordinates; correct?

Yes.

Next is, Reviews and approves daily reports, incident reports, subpoenas, warrants and overall activity of shift, investigate complaints or irregularities. Again, this has to do with, you know, overseeing his subordinates and being sure their paperwork is done correctly and the like; right?

Yes.

Okay. Next is to patrol the county, to assist deputies and ensure their compliance with assigned duties. And this is, I assume, part of his day-to-day job duties to oversee what's happening on patrol?

Yes.

And to assist. Next is, Oversee the use of departmental automotive and other equipment. So this is just being sure that all the equipment that you all are using day to day is being correctly maintained and used; correct?

Yes.

Okay. The next is to keep command staff and other subordinate personnel informed of new laws, court decisions, policies and police corrections problems.

Yes.

What does that mean? So in other words, if you update a policy or procedure or there's a new law, a lieutenant's responsibility is to let the people that report to him know that there is a change in a law or a policy or a court decision that's going to affect your day-to-day job; is that correct, in law enforcement?

He should do that, yes.

Okay. Next, Shall keep those officers under his supervision, properly and accurately informed on all

Yes.

Okay. Next is to analyze current criminal activities in the county. What is that? Just to keep an eye on what's happening where, numbers, events; is that what that would be.

Yes, I suppose so.

Okay. And so he can then direct his subordinates or supervise them in a way that meets the difficulties; is that the concept there?

To me that would make sense if there was a rise in crime in a certain area. He's analyzing that activity and, yes, directing his subordinates to respond to that.

Okay. And I think the next one may go along with it. Reviews and analyzes work in crime statistics to ensure efficient allocation of personnel.

Likewise.

Okay. Next is, Implements, coordinates and supervises crime prevention programs which are presented to the community as a means of educating citizens. I think that probably speaks for itself.

Yes.

And educate citizens?

Right. I don't know as far as how accurate that is as far as implementing new crime prevention programs.

Okay.

But, right, if he was asked to attend a neighborhood watch meeting or something.

Okay. Next is, Reviews invoices and purchase orders for correctness and completeness. What invoices or purchase orders might that be, if you know?

You know, that might be out of their purview. Perhaps, like, a travel voucher that, you know, somebody -- if one of his officers went to a school he would be expected to sign off on that. Like, hey, this is right, this is accurate, they stayed at this hotel and stayed for this school.

Okay. Next is, Requisitioning supplies and equipment. Do lieutenants do that? Or at least can they make a request?

They can make a request, yes.

And who would they make that to?

The best person would be our administrative secretary.

Okay. Next is, Assigns cases for investigation. And I'll stop right there. By investigation we're talking about investigation into crimes, law enforcement activity.

So initially would be assigned -- dispatch would assign those calls as they come in.

Okay.

But, yes, the supervisor could assign, you know, for a follow-up investigation. That would be in his purview.

Okay. Shows leadership in law enforcement and correction activities. Can you give me a quick overview of what that means to you?

Well, the corrections duties isn't technically accurate for this road patrol position. But shows leadership in law enforcement and corrections. Well, he's the leader of the shift, I think is what this is referring to.

Okay. And by the shift, the personnel?

Yes.

Oversees the personnel under him?

Yes.

Okay. Evaluates command staff on their performance, attitudes, morale and leadership abilities. I assume that's everybody subordinate to the lieutenant; correct?

Right, he would probably just be evaluating the sergeant

Okay. And he wants to be sure the sergeants that are reporting to him are performing properly, have good attitudes, they have good morale and leadership; correct?

Yes.

But he has no ability obviously to evaluate anybody above him; correct? It's just his subordinates?

Not a formal evaluation.

Right.

Right.

Personally handles difficult problems that arise. What is that, just day-to-day on the job. If there's a problem that arises he's to get personally involved if he can be of assistance with regard to his subordinates?

I guess, yeah, per his position, like, if you will, like, we would expect that the supervisor would do, like, the heavy lifting, if you will, or make those uncomfortable decisions if they arise.

Like, with somebody on the job, one of his subordinates runs into an issue?

Yeah, this is very vague. I'm not -- I'm not certain what they meant by that bullet point.

Okay. And then other duties as assigned. And then the supervision received says he's working -- the

Yes.

So as I understand this, and this is obviously nothing new in the police world, you all have a very specific chain of command that flows downward. And each of you that are at the command level have a certain number of subordinates that you are responsible for overseeing and that's your job?

Yes.

Okay.

There's -- I'd like also to mention there's another job description --

Okay.

-- that when we were speaking I was thinking of. I wasn't thinking of what was produced by the human resources department. We also have, like, an internal, you know, organizational chart, and that would mention what the duties of each position are.

I don't think we have that. Can you describe that? Is it, like, a org chart with boxes?

It's not boxes. It's in a narrative form. So it would say, you know, let's say for lieutenant or sergeant, it might say, responsible for the command and control of their shift.

Okay.

Reports to the captain, so it's not --

A bullet point list.

-- this detailed. It'd just be paragraph, paragraph. This is the structure.

Tell me what you think that says for lieutenant, just you know --

I think --

-- overview.

-- that language kind of would be, you know, responsible for the command and coordination of his shift.

Okay. Again, he's responsible for his subordinates --

Correct.

-- and himself?

Correct.

Okay. And then the sergeants under him, he's overseeing all of them but he relies on the sergeants to assist him in supervising their reports?

Yes. Yes.

Okay.

And the structure at our office is it's very fluid between the lieutenant and the sergeant, like, the duties they share or decide amongst themselves you're going to handle this portion of the work, I'll do this portion of the work. But, yeah, when you're not here,

Okay. Does anybody oversee the sheriff's duties and responsibilities? I mean, I realize it's an elected position. How does that work?

As an elected position?

Uh-huh.

I mean, he's the head of the agency.

Right.

Right.

Is there anybody at the county level that he at least periodically reports to? I assume he appears at some meetings when necessary?

Right. He would appear at county commissioner meetings, department head meetings, maybe any ad hoc meeting that would arise that would necessitate his presence. But, no, you're correct, as an elected official he wouldn't report to anyone, per se, I don't think.

Okay. What officers are you aware of who have been terminated from the department in the last -- let's call it five years, if any?

I can think of resignations. There's no terminations coming to mind right now.

Resignations occur in lieu of termination from time to time; is that accurate? You give an opportunity for

Some of the resignations I'm thinking of, you know, they just resigned. Some are just unannounced.

Were they under investigation?

Two of them were; some others that I'm thinking of were not under investigation. They resigned for other employment.

Sure. Leaving that out, but you have had resignations when people are under investigation in lieu of a termination that may be coming? I mean, I know that's not unusual in the police world.

Objection to the form of the question. BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

Go ahead.

Answer if you can understand what she's saying.

They resigned under investigation. I don't know if it was in lieu of termination, if that had been decided what the discipline was, if any. BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

Have you had people retire under investigation other than my client?

I don't know.

Anybody you can think of?

Not that I can think of right now.

Okay. And when an officer retires or separates you fill out a form that goes to MCOLES; is that correct?

I don't.

Somebody at the department does?

Somebody does, yes.

And what do you understand the purpose of that form is?

So there's new reporting, that new reporting form from MCOLES, I think that's relatively new. But the purpose of that, I think, is just to upon separation of employment kind of list where that employee fell, just to track that employee so they're not going from department to department.

Uh-huh.

And we have a bad apple that's gone undetected.

I'm going to tell you what I understand the categories are, and tell me if this sounds correct to you, for separation reasons. Deceased, retirement, retired in good standing, retired while under investigation, retired while under criminal charges, retired in lieu of termination.

I don't -- I don't know if I've ever actually seen the form.

Does that sound right?

It sounds right, yes.

And then there's a Resignation section, resignation, employee chooses to voluntarily leave; separation, employee-employer relationship is terminated by employer; separation for adjudication of guilt for a revocable event or fraud and retaining licensure. Do those sound familiar?

They don't sound familiar.

They make sense to you?

Yes.

Okay.

Just got to do a belated lack of foundation objection.

Well, I don't know lack of foundation.

Just so you know, Deb, the -- like, the resignation, like, if you click on that there's actually additional line items too so ....

Okay. So you're saying there's more items under, more options?

Yeah. The one you have, of course, was because it involved a retirement, it's under the retirement line and you click on that and then there's a drop-down box that you're seeing there.

Okay.

So there should be a drop-down box under resignation, as well. BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

I have something entitled, Internal Investigation, number 22-11, Scott Jones/Chad Cronkright Loyalty. You've looked at that recently, I assume?

Yes.

Okay. And it's to -- this is a memo to Sheriff King and Undersheriff Spadafore, so what were you investigating?

We were investigating leaks to social media --

Okay.

-- surrounding Marc King's arrest.

Okay. What's the -- I don't have a date on this document, on the memo to Sheriff King from you, which does include your conclusions. What would the date be?

It would have been after Scott's separation from employment.

So after he submitted his retirement under the circumstances that are already -- we have a record of in this case you prepared this investigative memo?

Yes.

Okay. The investigative memo includes conclusions and findings?

Yes.

When were those prepared?

After his separation.

Okay. And your conclusions and findings were that he had violated the following policy: 6.5, truthfulness policy; policy 6.10, loyalty policy; correct?

Yes.

6.9, standard of conduct policy; correct?

Yes.

Okay. So do you know the date that you prepared this for the sheriff?

I don't know.

How would we find out?

At this point I don't think we would.

Who typed it up?

I did.

Did you do it on a work computer, I assume?

Yes.

Okay. So there must be some kind of a record. What kind of computer do you use?

We work off of --

Laptop?

-- VDI boxes.

Okay. So as soon as you got it completed what did you do with it? Did you give it to the sheriff right away?

It was completed and put into the internal, like, a folder that would contain the policies and other

Okay. Well, when was the folder first created?

So I believe the 23rd is when we pulled this number to start the internal investigation.

November 23rd?

Yes.

Okay. So on November 23rd a file was opened; is that what you're saying?

A physical file, yes.

Yeah. Was there an electronic file?

The only electronic file would have been, like, the Word document that I typed this on.

So this is a Word document?

It's on Word, yes.

So you should be able to go back and find that memo?

I don't know. (Deposition Exhibit No. 2 marked for identification) BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

This memo, I've marked this as Exhibit 2 for the record.

I don't know if I have the capabilities to find that.

Right, I understand. Your job isn't to be a tech expert. But if it's a Word document presumably it's there, that's neither here nor there. So you prepared this -- you opened a file in November 23rd; is that what

So physically all internals go in a red folder, for what that's worth, and there is a number that tracks internals. You know, this is a 11 so this would have been the 11th internal presumably in 2022, and I would have pulled that number as the next number in line.

As the 11th internal?

If that's -- does that say 22-11?

Yep.

So that would be the 11th internal pulled.

Tell me what some of the other internals were, just so I have an understanding of what you're talking about.

We share this folder with the jail so I -- they may have pulled their own internal numbers, so I would have no idea what they pulled them for.

Well, what does internal refer to, an internal investigation?

Internal investigation, yes.

Do you guys have an internal affairs unit there?

No.

Who -- who -- okay. So who acts in the role of what would normally be internal affairs, which would be investigating possible illegal conduct by a police officer? Who does that?

So again, I would investigate a lieutenant. It wouldn't

I'm talking about a criminal violation.

On a criminal --

Yeah, I mean, because as I understand it, just from my years of experience in internal affairs usually has a specific role in investigating officers who might have violated the law. Is that your understanding? And that's when Garrity is read?

We don't have the luxury of having a dedicated internal affairs unit.

I understand that.

So --

But you have officers who might at some point be accused of legal violations that need to be investigated; correct?

Correct.

So who does that?

I think it would be a case-by-case scenario of how we hand those out.

So it could be any of the people you've already referenced here today that do investigations?

It would be somebody in the command structure that would do the investigation.

Have you ever done such an investigation of some officer

A criminal investigation or an internal --

An internal affairs -- I'm calling it affairs even though you don't have that department -- an internal investigation into a police officer where a Garrity hearing is held and Garrity Rights are read because it's a possible crime. Are you with me on that?

I'm with you.

Okay. So have you had hearings there where Garrity -- where the department insists that Garrity Rights be given to the officer?

Usually Garrity is invoked by the other party, the one being investigated, but, yes, I've given Garrity to people within the department.

Well, the department has an obligation to give -- read somebody their Garrity Rights if they're being investigated for possible criminal activity; right? It's not up to the person to ask for the rights to be read.

My understanding is it is up to them to request Garrity.

Okay.

But I also understand it would be implied, as well, if it's a compelled statement.

Okay. In any event, with regard to what I'm talking about about a Garrity hearing, internal affairs type

Correct.

Okay. Okay. So I just want to go back to this report which I'm marking as Exhibit 2. You said it was opened on --

I'm sorry, could I have a copy of the document you marked, Liz?

Are you handing it to him now?

Is that your only copy?

No, it's not.

Okay.

If you're ready to hand it to him.

Okay. Well, I don't think I need to hand it to you. I'm just referencing it for the record. We all know what it is. It's been produced by defendant.

Do you have a copy? I was looking for my copy. I couldn't wave my hand. I was just holding my folder --

Yeah.

I would probably have my folder -- BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

All right. So let's just go to when this file would have been opened, 21-11. You said there would have been a hard copy file opened?

Yes.

When would that have been?

I believe it was on the 23rd.

Okay. And why was it opened on the 23rd?

That's when I was directed to do so by the sheriff.

Okay. And at that time what was placed in the file with regard to this matter?

I don't know if anything was placed in the file at that time.

Well, was there a document that goes in with the number 22-11 on it?

It's just written on the tab.

Okay.

Handwritten on the tab above it.

So was there a file and then there was nothing in the file? It was just there, like something had been opened?

Right. As I -- upon completion of this report or another internal investigation or as I go, you know,

Okay. And when's the first time you put a document in the file?

That I don't recall.

What did you put in the file?

Ultimately?

Well, as you went.

So the copy of that report is in there.

Okay.

The policies -- the full policy version of each policy referenced is in there.

Okay.

There's copies of Facebook and Facebook messages are in there.

Okay. And just so we're clear for the record, this is the Kevin Lindke, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, Facebook posts?

Facebook posts and then there's two, like, text message screenshot pages.

From?

Between Chad Cronkright and Josh Goodrich, those are in there. There is a written statement from Chad Cronkright is in there.

When was that statement taken?

I don't want to misspeak, but I believe I interviewed

Okay. How long have you known Josh Goodrich?

I don't recall his hire date, but that's when I would have first met him.

I think it was 2019 -- I'm sorry, 2014, then he left in twenty --

'22. BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

'22, February '22?

That sounds about right.

So you worked with him?

Yes.

What was his rank when he was at the department?

Deputy.

Okay. And you knew who he was obviously and worked with him?

Yes.

Was he a good officer?

I don't know. I didn't work that closely with him.

Okay. Did you have any difficulties yourself with him?

No.

Okay. Do you know why he left? Did he get another job or do you know what happened?

He resigned. That was his decision. I do not know why he made that.

Okay. Did he go elsewhere?

I had heard that he worked for a company called Milo.

Okay. Who's Kevin Lindke?

Somebody who posts community -- his idea of wrongdoings, I guess, on Facebook.

One of those gadflies?

We would be all-day talking about the story. BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

Well, tell me what -- when did he first come to your attention?

He really came to my attention over this whole incident. I had heard his name prior, I just never paid any attention to it. And I never really knew anything about him or the back story or any dealings because I just don't get involved with jail matters, and he had spent time in our jail, you know, repeatedly. But it was really when this came to light, like --

What do you mean by jail? Was he hepped up on --

Incarcerated.

I know, but was that what his issue was, Lindke's issue? You said I don't get involved with the jail, so --

I don't know what --

I mean, I can go back and look at his stuff, I gotta be honest, so --

You'd be all day. BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

What's his schtick, as you understood it? Is it your department in particular or is it the county? Is it --

It's everybody.

It's state government?

As someone described as an anarchist. I think he has a power -- or problem with judges, law enforcement.

Okay.

His perceived -- what he perceives as whatever slights have been made against him. There's been a long going battle he has with a certain judge over custody rights with his daughter.

Okay.

There's just a lot of things.

Okay. Does the sheriff, like, have -- you know, does he dislike the sheriff or does the sheriff dislike him?

He definitely dislikes the sheriff.

Has he posted about the department other than this particular situation?

Oh, I'm certain of it.

Okay. Has anybody contacted him from the department or taken any action to find out where he gets his

That I don't know if anybody's reached out to him in that respect.

Okay. Has he posted things about the sheriff that you're aware of other than this matter?

He has. I just don't know what posts. There's so many posts.

Okay.

And I don't -- I don't keep tabs on those.

How many posts did he put up on this particular situation, vis-a-vis, Marc King?

I don't know.

Did you look at them?

Some of them.

Well, what do you mean some? Were there more than one on Marcus King that he posted?

There's more than one, yes.

Okay. This is what you're looking into, though, is a leak to Kevin Lindke, as I understand your testimony; correct? This is what you were investigating?

Yes, ultimately reached Kevin Lindke and it was on his -- he posted it on Facebook.

And that was what part -- that was what you were investigating?

Yes.

So what Facebook post that was posted were you looking at or for?

So the ones that I included in my internal report, obviously those. But I know through conversation that those were the only ones we were able to go back and grab.

Uh-huh.

Or persons other than myself screenshotted and grabbed. And that, in fact, there were more than that but they had been taken down and we can no longer find.

Okay. And do you know when they first went up?

I believe that would be November 8th.

Okay. And do you know of anymore that went up?

So we've determined that there were two that we verified were on November 9th, at least one on November 10th and then just a multitude of posts that we are not able to verify what date they were published.

Okay. Do you have a policy at your department for -- or protocol for stopping, arresting or investigating somebody suspected of drunk driving?

We have a traffic enforcement -- like, a traffic policy, like, that our members are expected to enforce traffic laws of the state of Michigan. So that -- I assume that would be covered under a traffic law violation.

So just -- let's just go through an overview of the

Marc.

I apologize, Marc King.

Yes, I have.

Okay. And does it appear to you that the policies were followed with regard to what you've read, the general protocols with regard to the stop?

So the traffic stop was effected by a Port Huron police officer so he wouldn't be under -- he's not subject to our policies.

Okay, but --

Yes, fair to stay that stop was a legal stop as -- as it was performed.

All right. And there were certain things that occurred at the scene, which I assume from what I've read in the report and my understanding of your policy is that, you know, similar to what you all would do if you made a stop. Made contact with the driver, have the driver step out of the vehicle, make observations about the physical appearance of the driver, whether they're manifesting physical signs of intoxication. Is that all correct?

Yes.

Questioned the driver about where they're driving from and to?

Yes.

Where they -- whether they'd been drinking?

Yes.

Ascertain from the suspect if they -- you know, if they had been drinking and how much?

Yes.

That's important to know, isn't it?

Yes.

Okay. And then you conduct field sobriety tests; yes?

Yes.

And, you know, there was field sobriety tests done with regard to Marc King; correct?

Yes.

And I assume you're familiar with those?

Yes.

And those all seemed appropriate; is that right?

Yes.

And the Breathalyzer is appropriate; correct?

Preliminary breath test, yes.

Okay. And then what happens on the scene once the Breathalyzer -- the preliminary Breathalyzer is administered? Do you get a result there on the scene typically?

Yes.

Okay. And what's your criteria with regard to the number of the Breathalyzer; is it the same as what happened here?

For arrest?

Yeah.

I guess I don't understand as far as -- the criteria as far as what his number was?

Yeah. Well, what is the level for your department when you're going to arrest somebody on a Breathalyzer?

Well, we don't have a specific policy stating that. I mean, state law is .08 BAC.

I'm sorry?

It's .08, but there's nothing stating that we --

What is .08?

Blood alcohol content.

Just in general are you talking about?

Just in general that would be the state law for the -- and certainly can make an arrest lower than that if you can prove impairment otherwise --

Okay.

Or by drug, per se.

And -- go ahead.

I was just going to say for alcohol it would be .08.

Okay. And impairment was shown at the scene; is that

Yes.

So once that happens what's the next step? Here he was found to be operating while intoxicated and he was handcuffed and placed in the rear of a patrol car; correct?

Correct.

That's proper procedure; correct?

Yes.

Okay. And since this was out of your jurisdiction, I guess you've become aware that -- I'm sorry, it was -- he was pulled over by a Lapeer police officer?

Port Huron. BY MS. GORDON, CONTINUING:

I'm sorry, Port Huron.

Yes.

Okay. And others were called to the scene; correct?

So the Port Huron police officer was out of his jurisdiction.

Okay, thank you, yeah.

He received permission to make that stop. He did and then our county deputies and subsequent personnel went to that scene to take over the traffic stop effectively.

And that is the proper procedure; correct?

Correct, in this -- in this circumstance how it played

And it was appropriate for my client to appear as a lieutenant; correct?

Yes.

And for the other two officers, the deputies that appeared; correct?

Yes.

Have you had other officers that you can think of here today since you've been with the department who have been stopped for being intoxicated and arrested?

Yes, we have.

Who do you recall in that regard?

Mark Dedenbach.

When was that, roughly?

2002.

Okay.

Myself.

What year was that?

2004.

Okay.

Who would be the next? Chad Cronkright.

When was that, roughly?

I don't know, 12 years, 15. I'm not certain.

Okay.

Dennis Tuzinowski.

Is he still with the department?

Yes.

Okay. When was that, roughly?

I would say eight to ten -- well, let's say six to eight. I'm not sure, somewhere in that window.

Okay.