Mat King Deposition

Good morning, Sheriff. I'm Deborah Gordon. We just met. If you don't understand my questions, if you'd like me to repeat or rephrase anything, just let me know. Okay?

Okay.

Have you sat for a deposition before?

Yes.

Okay. Was it in your role -- personal capacity role or in your professional capacity?

In my professional capacity.

And when is the last time that would have occurred?

I think it was last year.

Was that a lawsuit that was brought?

Yes.

And what was the nature of the case?

It was to do with the communication accessibility in the jail, meaning people using our tablets to communicate instead of being able to get regular mail through the mail service.

Okay. Have you been deposed in other civil cases?

Yes.

Roughly, how many?

I believe there's just one other one that I can remember.

What was that about?

I was a lieutenant in charge of the drug task force. Actually -- I'm sorry. I was a lieutenant in charge of the specialty response team, and we had executed a search warrant for the drug task force. And there was accusations of some improper actions by members of the drug task force.

Okay. Was that filed in federal court?

I don't know.

You don't remember?

I don't remember.

Okay. What documents have you reviewed to get ready for this dep, to refresh your recollection, or for any other purpose?

I reviewed the police report of the arrest of my brother Marc King, the internal investigation involving Marc King, Scott Jones, and Chad Cronkright, and the deposition transcripts of Captain Matt Pohl.

Okay. When did you read the Pohl dep?

Last week.

Okay. Were you asked to produce documents in this case such as emails, text messages, communications you would have had with anybody, or anything else?

Yes.

Okay. What were you asked to -- what did you produce?

I don't remember explicitly because there was different things that applied to myself or the captain or the undersheriff. I think we had reports sent over. I know we answered the interrogatories. And I consulted with my counsel, and he advised we had answered everything that we could.

Yeah. I didn't ask you about the interrogatories. I wanted to know what documents you produced, if any.

The same answer.

What's the answer?

I don't remember exactly what I produced.

Okay. Well, did you produce something?

I believe so, yes.

Okay. What was the nature of what you produced?

I don't exactly remember. I believe the police report and the internal investigation.

You wouldn't have had to produce the police report, would you? Anybody in the department could have produced that, or a FOIA request could get that, right?

Could get that, yes.

Did you produce that yourself?

I don't think so, no.

Okay. Well, I want to know what you produced. For example, since you've told me you can't exactly remember, I assume you must have had communications with your brother, Marcus King, around the time of the events at issue, correct?

Correct.

You text with him, correct?

No.

You don't text with your brother?

Not at the time. I --

Sir, have you ever texted with your brother --

Yes.

-- since he's worked at the county sheriff's department?

Yes.

And you have his cell phone number in your phone,

Yes.

Okay. And you guys text with one another, just like you do with other people, correct?

Correct.

All right. And you would have texted with him -- you always text with him, don't you, just like we all do with colleagues and family members, correct?

I text with him, correct.

Yeah. So you would have texted with him in 2024, correct?

Correct.

Okay. Were you asked to produce any of those texts?

I don't recall being asked to produce any of those texts, no.

Okay. What kind of carrier is on your phone?

My work phone is a Verizon work phone.

Okay. And does Marcus King have a Verizon work phone?

Not that I know of.

Okay. Who at the department would have assigned work phones other than yourself?

Detectives, people at the drug task force, lieutenants. There's probably a handful of other ones like secondary roads, special assignment-type things.

Okay. So have you texted with your brother, Marcus,

I'm sure it's happened.

Okay. And what would be the context? Would it just be ordinary text or for a special purpose if you're using your county phone?

Work purposes.

Can you give me an example of what a work purpose is where you would contact him?

At one time, I was out at the drug task force at the same time he was at the drug task force, and there would have been texting back and forth about start times, about other work business, such as meeting places for buys -- being a drug buy -- because we're at the drug task force. I was also in charge of the special response team. There would be texting about training dates and locations, plans for operations.

Okay. And then you use your personal phone for other communications with your brother, I assume?

Yes.

Okay. And do you carry your personal phone with you?

Yes.

Okay. And he does the same, I assume?

Yes.

Okay. So you would have texted with him on or around

No.

Why not?

I made a phone call.

To your brother?

Yes.

And what time --

Can I just step in? You said '24. Do you mean '22?

Yes. Sorry.

I think you're a couple years off.

Yeah. I got that. I misspoke.

Maybe we could rephrase our question.

No. It's just I meant 2022. MS. GORDON:

So you called your brother?

Yes.

And when did you call him?

Evening hours of that date.

So the date would have been November 6th?

Yes.

Okay. So he -- it was after he was arrested; is that

And released, yes.

Ok. So it would have been next -- he was released in -- it was after he was released by your department?

Correct.

You did not talk to him prior to that?

Prior to him being released, no, I did not.

Why not?

Because he was in custody.

And he had his phone for part of that time, correct?

I have no idea.

So if you had no idea, you didn't try to get hold of your brother and say, "Are you okay? What's going on? What can I tell our parents? Tell me how you are"? You didn't call him about any of that?

Absolutely not.

Okay. So do you still -- so your personal phone is what carrier?

Verizon.

And what's that number?

(810) 363-8642.

Did you text with him anytime between 11-6-22 and the next 30 days?

I'm sure I probably did.

Have you deleted those texts?

No, not that I know of.

Those would be on your phone?

I don't know how long back they go, but if -- I didn't get rid of them.

All right. So we're going to ask for those, if we haven't already. Perhaps we already have. I don't know. But we're going to seek all of your texts. So if you could just be sure to hang onto those.

Okay.

Have you disposed of any information that could be potential evidence in this case --

I don't -- no, not that I can think of.

Did you text with Pohl the day or night of November 6, 2022?

No.

You talked to him on the phone?

Yes.

How many times?

I think just once.

Okay. And what time was that, roughly?

Probably mid-morning -- 10:00, 11:00, 12:00, sometime like that.

You hadn't talked to him previously?

No.

And what did you talk to him about at that time?

Marc's arrest.

What did you say?

That Marc got arrested. We talked about the fact he was taken to Lapeer County Jail and that there'd be an internal investigation started, that he'd be doing the internal investigation on Marc's drunk driving.

You already knew about it at that time, though?

Who did?

You did.

Knew about what? MS. GORDON:

You already knew about the information you just told me you discussed with Pohl?

Yes. Pohl hadn't -- Pohl hadn't been privy to it, that I know of.

So you were advising him. Is that what you're telling me?

Correct.

Okay. And what did he say?

I don't recall.

What was your purpose in calling him?

He's the road patrol captain. I'm not sure if he called me or I called him. I just know we talked.

What was the point in calling him?

Informing him that somebody from our department got

He didn't know that already?

Not that I know of.

Did he say to you, "Yeah, I already knew that"?

I don't recall.

This was after Marcus got released?

I don't recall if it was after Marc got released or not.

You were upset?

Yeah, I was.

Okay. Who else did you talk with about the arrest on or around 11-6-2022.

The undersheriff, Jim Spadafore.

When did you talk to him?

Sometime around the same -- mid-morning hours of that same morning.

Okay. And why did you talk to him?

Same reasons.

What were they? What were they with Spadafore?

Discuss the point that we had a deputy that got arrested and he was taken to Lapeer County Jail instead of our facility.

What was the point of that conversation? What were you trying to impress upon him or communicate about? That you were upset that he was taken to the Lapeer

I was upset that my brother made a stupid decision and got drunk and drove a vehicle.

But I was wondering about the conversation with Spadafore. Did you tell him that?

Right. You asked me what the purpose of the conversation was, what I was upset for. I was explaining --

No, I really didn't ask it exactly that way, but the record will reflect what it says. You contacted Spadafore, and the first thing you said is you talked to him about going to the Lapeer County Jail?

One second, please. You're not letting him finish his answer.

Yes, I am.

No. You actually cut him off twice in a row.

Okay. Thank you, Todd.

Okay. Well, you can't ask him a question and not let him answer.

You made your point.

No, I haven't made my point, because I'm not going to let you do that this whole deposition. If you ask him a question --

You can leave anytime if you don't like it.

Either withdraw your question, or you take the answer. You've got to let him answer the full question, and you know it. So do you want to withdraw the last question, or do you want to let him finish his answer?

I want -- I'm going to do what I want to do, so don't be --

No, you're not going to do what you want to do, because you want to cut him off. So you can read back the question, and I'd ask that you let the witness answer the question or withdraw your question. That's your two choices. If not, let's get the judge on the line and see if she'll sanction you.

You go right ahead, my friend. Have at it. Get out your cell. BY MS. GORDON:

Sheriff, you're going --

Wait a second. We're not going to answer questions unless you let him answer questions.

Okay. I'm not going to listen to you repeat stuff over and over again. If you're

What I would like to know is --

I'm not --

I would like you to give him a chance to answer questions. You're cutting him off, and you're not letting him answer. And if that's the way it's going to be, we are going to leave.

Okay. You go ahead. Lisa, would you please read back my last -- the last answer of the witness or my last question.

Thank you. (The following requested portion of the record was read by the reporter at 10:20 a.m.:

What was the point of that conversation? What were you trying to impress upon him or communicate about? That you were upset that he was taken to the Lapeer County Jail, was that kind of the point here?) BY MS. GORDON:

Is that what you were trying to impress upon him?

I was trying to let him know what happened, that we

Well, Spadafore must have known that, that you would already be upset about -- anybody would be upset about somebody getting really, really -- let's call it super drunk -- and driving. So Spadafore must have known that, correct, already?

I don't know what Spadafore knew.

How would you explain it to him, then? What did you say to him?

I don't --

"I'm really, really upset that my brother got overly drunk"?

Probably something like that.

Okay. Then you said, "And I'm upset that he went to Lapeer County," something like that?

Correct.

Did you tell him why you were upset?

I don't recall. It was two years ago.

What else did you tell Spadafore?

I was upset that I wasn't notified of the fact that we had an employee get arrested.

Okay. Anything else that you told him?

Not that I can recall.

Do you automatically get contacted if an employee is arrested?

I should, yes.

Is that in writing somewhere?

There was a memo sent out by myself when I was road patrol captain -- a list of times where people were supposed to be notified, administration, different parts, and different policies. It's advised that you advise administration when certain things happen within the department.

Was this included in that list or not?

Yes, major --

Are you sure?

-- major situations. Major incidents going on, you're supposed to notify the supervisors.

Okay. But it doesn't say that when deputies are arrested, the elected sheriff has to be notified, correct? It doesn't say that, does it?

I don't know the exact wording.

Okay. All right. So who else did you talk to on the 6th about your brother getting arrested?

I believe the only other person would have been Deputy Duva.

Okay.

And, actually, Lieutenant Braun as well. I'm sorry. I just remembered that.

Did you text with any of these individuals?

No.

Okay. So I was asking you about documents that you produced. Did you produce any documents in this case that weren't already public record documents?

I don't recall.

Well, how could you refresh your recollection? Would you have sent them with an email to somebody if you did produce anything? Would you have had somebody copy them for you?

They would have been sent to corporate counsel so we would have record of it.

I didn't ask you who they would have been sent to. I knew they would have been sent to corporate counsel. I'm just trying to find out whether you produced a single document in this case on your own.

You asked how we could refresh my recollection, and my answer is we could refresh my recollection with -- checking with corporate counsel's documents and what he compiled to send over to you.

No, I can't get his documents, but I could get any emails where you may have sent documents or directed somebody to.

We could do an email search if I asked IT.

You didn't do that already? You haven't --

You hadn't asked me a question already.

Do you know what documents we requested in this case?

Not off the top of my head.

Have you seen the request to produce documents?

At some point I did, yes.

Okay. Do you remember what we asked for?

Not off the top of my head, no.

What is your date of birth?

1-6-75.

What's your brother Marcus's date of birth?

I know he was born in '74. I don't know the date.

He was born in 1974?

Yes.

You guys are one year apart?

A year and nine months.

Do you have any other siblings?

Yes.

How many?

Three other siblings.

Do they live in the area?

Yes.

Are any of them employed by the county, or have they been employed by the county?

At one point, yes.

Who was employed by the county?

My youngest sister, probably 24 years ago, was a dispatcher.

For the county sheriff's department?

Yes.

Who else in your family has been employed by the county?

My nephew was a sheriff's deputy.

And what's his name?

Zane King.

How long was he a deputy?

I think maybe a year.

And when was that, roughly -- or exactly, if you know?

I think it was about three years ago.

What happened to him? Why did he leave?

He decided police work wasn't for him, and now he works for the County Road. Just didn't like dealing with people and their problems.

And you were -- when did you first get elected sheriff?

In 2020.

Okay. So he would have been working at the sheriff's department while you were the elected sheriff; is that correct?

Yes.

Okay. Were you involved in hiring him on?

Yes.

Okay. And how did he perform, as far as you know?

He performed well until the last few months. He seemed to be disconnected from police work. The lieutenant talked to him, and he basically said he didn't think he wanted to be the police. He didn't -- it just wasn't for him.

Who talked to him? Which lieutenant?

Lieutenant Maxey.

Okay. And he's now working for the County Road Commission?

Correct.

And whose son is that?

That is my oldest brother, Michael John King's son.

Does -- has Michael worked for the county?

No.

All right. Anybody else that's worked for the county?

My niece, Chase King, worked for the county as a sheriff's -- corrections deputy for, I think, two or three years.

When was that, roughly?

She left about a year ago maybe.

Okay. And how old was Chase roughly at the time?

I think she got hired -- she was 24.

I'm sorry. What was she hired as?

Corrections deputy.

That was part of your department?

Yes. Part of the sheriff's office, yes.

Okay. And how long was she with the county?

Three or four years. I can't exactly -- it might have been -- don't think it was five.

And was she an hourly or salaried employee?

Hourly.

Was she a union employee?

Yes.

And why did she leave?

She has a child with her significant other who lives in Lansing, has a business. And she got a job there and moved with the child over to the Lansing area.

Anybody else in your family that has worked for the county?

No, not -- no.

Did either of your parents work for the county in any capacity?

No.

Okay. When did you first become a county employee?

1998.

And what was your first job?

Road patrol deputy.

What's your educational background?

I have an associate's degree.

From where?

St. Clair County Community College.

And when did you get that?

I think in '90 -- I think it was '99.

Okay. What was your next promotion after your first promotion after road patrol?

Road patrol sergeant.

Okay. And roughly when was that?

I think about 2012. I'd have to work it backwards.

Okay. That's fair enough. I understand it's an estimate. Then, did you become a lieutenant after that?

Yes.

When was that, roughly?

2014. It was about two years.

And what was your next move in the department?

Road patrol captain.

Were you appointed to that position?

No. That was a union job. Same process as to become a sergeant or lieutenant.

Okay. Then, what was your next position?

Sheriff.

When did you first run for sheriff?

2020. I guess 2020. So I guess I started -- my first term was 2021.

And how long is your term?

Four years.

When was the last election?

In last year, 2024.

Did you run a campaign?

Yes.

Did you have a primary opponent?

Yes.

Who was that?

Warren Head.

How much money did you raise?

I think about $80,000.

Who were your main contributors? Who were some of your larger contributors?

Let's see. I'm trying to think of some larger ones. There was a couple of PACs. I forget what the name -- Citizens for Honest Government.

Who was behind that one?

I don't even know that one. They dropped off a check, and my daughter was working the front desk. I know that they've contributed before.

What front desk was she working?

For a fundraiser at Alexander's.

Which daughter was that?

Well, all three of my daughters. I forget -- Madison, Caitlyn, and Aly were all there. I forget which one got that specific check.

You must know who your larger donors were, obviously?

Yeah. So them, I believe Joe Morisette, Ron Eckovetti (phonetic). Yeah, those are the ones that I can remember giving -- giving more than a few hundred bucks, off the top of my head.

Did you get contributions from employees of the county?

Yes.

Who contributed from the sheriff's department?

I think Tim O'Donnell (phonetic) did.

What's his title?

Detective. Jim Spadafore is my undersheriff. Matt Pohl is my captain. I believe my brother Marc did. I can think of people who were at the fundraisers. They didn't all give. I mean, there's obviously a full record of all these donations.

Sure. Did you file all the documents timely?

Yes.

What was the -- was it a close election or not a close election?

The primary -- to me, it was close. The people who are in politics said it wasn't close. I won by 12 percent.

That's not close.

That's what people say, but to me it felt close.

All right. So that was that. The primary was essentially the big thing?

There was a general write-in by the person who lost in the primary, but that was not close.

Okay. When did your brother become employed by the sheriff's department?

I believe it would have been 20 -- no, 2005.

Okay. And he was hired in as what?

Corrections deputy.

What is a corrections deputy?

So that's a deputy who works within the jail and handles jail operations. They're not MCOLES-certified, so they don't make arrests. They wear the same uniform, but they control the operations of the jail, movement of the jail, things like programming, safety, security, transport, distribution of meds or medical attention, food, things like that.

And they're assigned specifically to the jail?

Yes.

They're not out on the road?

Correct.

Do they get a similar pay rate to the deputies?

It's significant -- well, I only hesitate because they just got a decent contract, but it's less than the deputies, yes.

Roughly, or if you know specifically, how many corrections deputies do you have at any given time?

Any given time?

Yeah. What do you try to have as your level of corrections deputies?

Probably about 25, I think.

Okay. How many different shifts are those 25?

Four.

So at any given time, you have in the jail how many deputies? About six working a shift, or is it---

Oh, no. I'm sorry. It would be about 20, 25 per shift.

Oh, thank you.

It is probably closer to 20, now that I think about it.

Okay. And where is the jail located?

It's connected. It's one large building at 1170 Michigan Road. There's the jail, and then

How many prisoners could you house in that jail?

About 491.

How many do you typically have?

Regularly, about 380.

Okay. And when was this jail built?

I believe 2014. Wait. No.

So since you've been sheriff --

I'm sorry. I think it was -- I think it's older than that. I think it was about 2010 or something like that.

And there are cells in the jail, obviously?

Yes.

What else is in the jail? What other offices or --

Yeah. So there's an intake area as you walk in through a sally port where there's a large room where people are processed, and there's kind of like a waiting room until they're classified to go back to whatever cell or room they should go to, assuming that they're cooperating individuals. There's several cells off of that that are single-person cells with -- you know, the lights are on all the time. Near that is the booking station, and then the whole like area of offices for different

Okay. And you've had sheriff's deputies held in that building, correct?

In the -- yes. In the building, yes.

In the jail building?

So the jail is part of a bigger building. So the sheriff's office itself includes everything from administration to the detective bureau to a big hallway where the employees come in, and then the briefing room, then the lobby, records, and then the jail in the back. To my recollection, we've never had

Okay. Captain Pohl testified he was held there. Do you recall that?

Different jail. That's the old jail. It's a whole different building. It doesn't exist anymore.

Well, he was held in a jail, correct?

Yeah. We were talking about the jail at 1170 Michigan Road.

Okay. That's been there for how long, the one you've got there now?

I think about since 2010.

What was the difference in the old building?

It was about 5 miles away. It was constructed totally different. It was a different design.

So what's the distinction as to why he could be held in the old building? Do you know?

I wasn't the sheriff then. It was two sheriffs ago. I don't know what the decision-making there was.

Since you've been with the department in any capacity, have you become aware that a lot of deputies or command officers are arrested for driving while intoxicated?

I wouldn't say a lot, no, but I'm aware of instances where they have been arrested, yes.

Does your brother have a drinking problem?

I don't think that's for me to say. Obviously, at the time, he was making poor decisions with drinking.

Well, you're his boss in addition to being his brother, and I presume you -- it's important to you to know whether any sheriff's deputies have drinking problems. That would be important for you to know, wouldn't it?

Yes.

Okay. So, in that capacity, did your brother have a drinking problem?

Did he, or does he?

Did he.

At that time, yes, I would say he did.

And had you been aware that he had been having a drinking problem?

No, I was not aware of that.

How did you become aware of it?

That night in subsequent conversation with him.

Has he received any treatment?

I know he finished -- yeah, I guess it would be treatment.

Other than what the court ordered?

I don't know.

Nothing that you're aware of?

Not that I'm aware of.

Does the police department have an HR/personnel office? I shouldn't say police department. Sheriff's office.

No.

So tell me how HR is managed on your end for your department. As I understand it, you have a county HR department?

Correct. So the sheriff is a co-employer of his employees with the county, and they have an HR department. They handle wages, benefits, negotiation for wages and benefits and such. Then, our office handles the employment day to day. Now, obviously, those two blend from time to time. My secretary, Andrea, handles things like FMLA, extended time off, things like that as far as HR goes. We do all of our own internal investigations for violations of policies and such as far as HR. I don't know if that answers your question.

Have your officers had any training with regard to laws involving, let's say, sexual harassment?

Yes.

Who provides that training?

There's internal training through our February training every year. That would be included from time to time and then --

Excuse me. When you say "our training," I don't know who you're talking about.

The sheriff's office has a two-day training every year to meet -- well, we did it before, but we do it now to meet mandated continued education through MCOLES.

Who sets up that training?

I have a training lieutenant who is assisted with other supervisors.

Okay. Is there any other kind of training that your employees get with regard to county rules, procedures, regulations, and the like?

So as far as policies and procedures, they are presented with that when they go through field training. And then, obviously, when there's any -- I shouldn't say obviously. When there's any update, those policies and procedures are pushed down through the command staff, and they are to make sure that the deputies are informed and sign a form to say they have been -- they have reviewed the new policy or policy changes.

Are those county policies?

They're sheriff's department policies.

Okay. Do you -- are there county policies that apply to the sheriff's department?

There would be county policies as far as certain

Where does an employee go to file an EEO -- Equal Employment Opportunity -- complaint in your department?

I don't know. I've never heard of anybody doing that.

Okay. So do you have any sheriffs there that are not white, any deputies?

Road patrol, we have Wally. I don't know what you -- what do you mean by white?

Somebody that's Hispanic or black.

Yeah. Road patrol we have, I think, one Hispanic. On the jail side, we have several Hispanics and a black individual.

You have one black employee for the sheriff's department?

Correct.

Out of how many altogether?

I have 250 employees.

2-5-0?

Yes.

Okay. And you have one black employee?

Yes.

How about women? Do you have any women that are deputies of any kind --

Yes.

-- or working at the jail?

Yes.

How many women do you have?

The jail, I think we have probably at least 20. That's not -- well, that's not correct. That would be uniformed. Probably more like 30 or 40 when you count the support staff back there.

I'm talking about deputies, not support staff.

Okay. Because when I said 250, I meant all employees, including support staff and --

Okay. I'm talking about sworn officers.

Sworn officers, I think there's 87 from myself on down.

Okay. And how many of those are female?

I'd guess at least 10. I'm not positive.

Are they assigned to the jail, or are they road

So when you say sworn officers, I mean just road patrol.

Okay. Fair enough. Got it.

Yes. On the jail side, there's probably another 90.

But you don't know of any place where somebody would go to file a complaint with regard to some kind of an EEO violation that they believe has occurred, somebody thinks they've been passed over based on gender? Do you know what they do?

Yes. They --

Do they go to HR?

No. They'd file a grievance, because they're in a union.

Okay. But your union contract likely does not include sex discrimination. I think you're making an assumption here.

No, I'm not making an assumption. If they thought they were passed over unfairly for a promotion, they would file a grievance through their union.

I get that, sir, but I'm talking now about gender discrimination. Not just passed over because it's unfair and they're more qualified but passed over because of their gender.

Any promotion --

Hang on. There's a distinction here. I get that you're wedded to the union contract for obvious reasons and that you're used to people filing grievances for unfair treatment that they perceive, but I'm talking about a legal violation, not a violation of the contract. A violation of state or federal law, not the contract. Is there a place somebody can go and make a complaint, that you are aware of, about a legal violation, not a contract violation?

I believe they'd get a lawyer and sue the county.

So you don't have any internal area, any department that would look into that and investigate it?

Anything outside of a legal violation would be filed through a grievance.

Okay. I already heard you on that, and I realize you're -- you live in a particular world, but I think you've answered my question. What about somebody that has a disability and needs an accommodation under the Americans with Disabilities Act that works for the county? What is your understanding of where that individual would go?

They would advise administration --

Hang on. Are you guessing, or do you have some --

No. We've had people with disabilities. We had a

Who handled that?

I wasn't the sheriff, but I would presume the sheriff. I was maybe a sergeant or deputy.

Do you have any training yourself on disability discrimination and accommodations? I assume you don't, but --

Not off the top of my head.

Does anybody in your department that you know of?

I don't know.

I assume the county HR person would be knowledgeable about that, given the number of people that are being overseen.

Okay.

Is that correct? Would you assume the same thing, that the county --

I don't assume anything.

You just don't know?

I don't know.

Okay. Who was the HR county individual at the time, let's say, in 2022? Who was the HR individual for the county?

They have a whole department.

Okay. Well, who was the head of the department?

Diane Barber.

Do you know Diane Barber?

Yes.

And how did you know her?

She is the HR director.

So in what regards did you periodically interact with her or have to talk to her?

Contract negotiations. We have department head meetings, and she would give updates on different benefits and things going on in the county, as well as other people in the meeting.

Okay. So you knew Diane?

Yeah.

When is the last time you would have interacted with her?

It would have been maybe fall of '24 or winter of '24 at the last meeting that she was at.

Okay. Other than attending meetings with her, what other interactions did you have with her?

Just when we do contract negotiations.

You learned that my client filed a complaint with her, correct?

Yes.

Okay. And did you discuss that with her?

I did not, no.

Somebody else from your department, I assume, did?

I think the undersheriff did. I'm not positive.

You would -- somebody would have had to talk to her about that, correct?

We don't have to, but I think somebody did.

Okay. You don't think you have to under the law?

No.

So somebody can file a complaint about a violation, and what? Somebody just decides it'll be thrown in the wastebasket, or is that an overstatement?

So if somebody files a complaint with an individual, that individual has a responsibility to talk to whoever they think they need to talk to. So we're talking about a complaint that was filed with Diane Barber. She would be obligated to talk to other people.

Okay.

So I can't say we're obligated to go to her, because --

I didn't say you were. I just said were you --

It seems like you did.

Well, you would -- she would contact you is what I would presume.

Right. And I --

That would be her job.

I didn't have any direct contact with her.

Okay. And you don't know who did from your department?

Not off the top of my head, no.

Okay. But somebody would have been contacted --

Objection, calls for speculation. BY MS. GORDON:

Somebody would have been contacted, as you understand it, correct?

I don't know what she did.

I know. But somebody would have been contacted. I understand you don't know the details. That's somebody below you, correct?

Same objection.

I don't know how to answer the question. I don't know what she did. BY MS. GORDON:

Well, did you look into it when you found out about the complaint?

I don't remember looking into it. We had conversations internally about how it was something we hadn't seen done before, but I don't remember looking

Okay. Who had those conversations?

Myself, the undersheriff, and Captain Pohl.

And what was just the nature of the conversations?

Well, the conversation took place after the interview of Scott Jones at HR. And I remember talking about the fact that Scott was supposed to come in for an interview at the sheriff's office, refused to, and demanded to have it at HR. We found that bizarre. It's never happened before. So after the meeting, when they came back -- because we were informed at that meeting that Scott had previously given or filed a complaint -- I remember us thinking -- the light bulb went off like, "Oh, that's why he wouldn't come here for the interview, because he's doing something with HR on a complaint with us." And we were unsure as to why, because he's got a union, and he could have filed a grievance if he thought he was being treated in the wrong way. I'm an elected official, so his -- us being co-employers doesn't bleed over to them having some type of ability to discipline me. So it was more of a wondering what he was even doing. It was a very --

You and who else were wondering what he was doing?

Captain Pohl and Undersheriff Spadafore.

Did anybody find out the nature of what he was doing was, or did you guess about it?

I don't remember. I remember us -- I don't remember guessing about it. We weren't sure what his angle was.

Wasn't it important to find out? I mean, this is a longtime highly regarded officer, and you've now found out for the first time he's made this complaint. Did you -- were you -- did anybody decide to look into it?

I don't recall us looking into it, no.

Apparently not, right? Or you did? Or you -- what happened?

I don't understand "What happened?" -- that question.

Well, you guys sat around and chatted about it. You're like, "What the -- what's he doing? Why is he doing it?" Yes?

Yes.

"This seems weird to us. We've never heard of this before." Right?

Yes.

So what did you then do -- strike that. So did you discuss -- did you discuss it with Scott Jones?

I did not, no.

Did anybody?

I don't know. I think Undersheriff Spadafore talked to him about it, but I wasn't there when that conversation was taking place.

Okay. In what manner do you keep department orders and rules and regulations, policies?

They're kept on the Y drive of the computer system at the sheriff's office.

Have there been any orders issued, new orders, policy orders, since you've been sheriff?

Yeah. We're currently reviewing, redoing all the policies, and we're using Lexipol, which is a highly regarded policy maker.

Okay. Well, have any new policies been issued since you have been the elected sheriff? I know you said you're working on them. I want to know if there's any new policies.

Yes. There's been some new policies, yes.

Okay. And when -- what's the date of these new policies?

I don't know off the top of my head. I just know that we enacted the body-worn camera program under my first term, and we had to write a policy for that.

Okay. Anything else you can recall that's new?

I know that we changed the policy for the jail.

You have a department policy on documenting in case management; is that correct?

Yes.

And the purpose of the policy is to provide department members with consistent guidelines to document police investigations; is that correct?

Well, there'd be a lot of purposes for the policy, but it would be to make sure that there's some consistency and stuff.

Okay. And part of the policy is that original complaints, accident reports, traffic citations, are to be completed and submitted to the service bureau prior to the completion of the officer's shift, correct?

Are you reading from a document?

I'm paraphrasing from a document.

Okay. I don't have that document, but it's to guide the people at the sheriff's department on how to and

Right. And they're supposed to do it by the completion of their shift; is that correct?

Not always, no.

Under what circumstances would they not? They have to have a deputy supervisor excuse them for that, don't they, under the policy?

Excuse -- what do you mean by "excuse them"?

If you're not going to get your report in by the close of the shift, you have to get excused by the duty supervisor, correct?

No.

That's what the policy says.

I don't know that. I don't have the policy in front of me.

Okay. Well, sir, you're in charge of the policies, aren't you?

I by no way will state that I know all the words of all the policies off the top of my head.

Okay. But this is not all the policies. This is a very specific thing. Is it correct that, generally speaking, deputies are to -- any deputy is to submit their written reports by the completion of their shift? Is that correct?

No.

Okay. Why not? Why is that not the policy?

Deputies --

I've sued a lot of police departments, and I've learned that this is how people do things.

Yeah. I don't believe that for a second, that every police department hands in every report before they leave the shift.

I didn't say that. I said their policy is that you're supposed to complete your report by the end of your shift. Do you agree that that's the general rule?

Okay. You've asked two different questions.

Is that the general rule, that you're supposed to complete your report by the end of your shift?

So I feel like there's been six or seven questions asked --

I just asked one.

-- and they're all getting lumped into one. General rule, you should complete your reports, yes.

By the end of your shift, correct?

Yes.

Okay. And your policy says unless excused by the duty supervisor. Are you aware of that?

I don't -- I don't have the policy in front of me, and --

You don't remember that that's in the policy?

No, I don't.

I'll hand you policy 15.2.

What part?

Go to number 4 -- 3. I'm sorry. B-3.

Okay.

You can read that.

"Original complaints" --

You don't have to read it out loud.

Okay. I'm sorry.

Do you see where it says "unless excused by the duty supervisor"?

Do you have a copy of that for me?

No, I don't.

Okay. Let me look here with you here, then. BY MS. GORDON:

Do you see number 3?

B-3.

Yeah. BY MS. GORDON:

Okay. And do you see the words "unless excused by the duty supervisor"?

I do, yes.

So the way it reads is, "Original complaints, accident reports, and traffic citations shall be completed and submitted to the service bureau prior to the completion of their shift unless excused by the duty supervisor." Have I read that correctly?

Yeah.

That's the county policy, correct?

Yes.

With regard to your policy on release of intoxicated inmates, detainees, you have something in writing, don't you?

Yes.

Okay. And what's the purpose of that policy?

It's to guide the actions of people on the corrections side of the sheriff's office when to release an in-custody person from the jail.

What's the big picture purpose of the policy? To ensure what?

To ensure safety of that person, the public, and to mitigate liability, basically.

You don't want to release somebody that may still be intoxicated, correct?

Correct.

So the policy says that -- are you familiar with the policy, in general?

I know there's a policy, yes.

Okay. "No inmate will be released from the St. Clair County Intervention Center without clear authorization." What does that mean, "without clear authorization"?

So the policies are written in a chronological way. So to pick out one part of it and then ask me to make sense of it, I don't think I can do that.

Okay. Well, this isn't a difficult one. It's that --

It is a difficult one.

I wasn't done talking. Okay?

Okay.

It's talking about inmates can't be released without authorization. What does the word "authorization" mean here, as you understand it?

Somebody allowing it.

Okay. And who has to authorize somebody to be released?

I'd have to read the context of where that is in the policy.

What would you need for context?

I explained before, policies are written in a chronological way. So perhaps a sentence or a paragraph above would tell me exactly who they're talking about.

Okay. So we'll come back to that. "New arrest" -- the policy also says, "New arrestees who have been drinking alcoholic beverages or under the influence of illegal drugs prior to being arrested will not be released until considered sober." Is that --

So is your -- go ahead.

I'm in the middle of reading something.

When you're done, I want to place an objection on the record. Go ahead. BY MS. GORDON:

"And no longer under the influence of alcohol or free from the influence of illegal drugs." Does that sound familiar?

I'm going to object to the extent you're reading from a document and you're not showing it to the witness -- BY MS. GORDON:

Does that sound familiar?

-- which you're required to do under 612.

I, again, will say it sounds like part of a policy, and the policies are built in a chronological order. BY MS. GORDON:

Okay. But does that -- does the concept -- is it correct that your department's policy is not to release people who may still be intoxicated? Do I have that right?

Correct.

Okay. And what is considered to not be intoxicated in your office?

So that policy is explained in different ways --

What do you understand the requirement to be before you can release somebody?

That -- if we're talking about alcohol, and the subject agrees to and does successfully take a PBT, anybody 21 and over must be at a .03 or below. Anybody at below 21 years old must be at triple zero.

Okay. And how is it determined after the person is arrested and brought in that they are -- can be released because they're at .03?

If they agree to give a -- well, they're administered a PBT.

Okay. And where is that typically administered, in your world?

Wherever that individual is at.

Is that the jail if they've been brought in?

If that's where they're at, yes.

Well, where else would they be if they were arrested?

Yeah. There's -- interesting. We just had a murder case. The individual was arrested and held in the interview room for hours and hours. They were in custody. So anywhere in the building that they are not allowed to leave and are in custody could be a place they could be administered a PBT or be held in custody at the sheriff's office.

Okay. And how would you -- as I understood it, you have some equipment at the jail that you use typically to do a PBT?

It's a PBT.

Thank you.

That's the equipment.

It's at the jail?

It's a handheld -- it's in patrol cars. It's at the jail. It's in the briefing room. There's dozens of them throughout the building, yeah.

And does the jail have a camera that you take video of the person taking the test --

No.

-- or a picture?

No.

Are you sure?

Yes.

Okay. So what is the equipment that you use for these blood alcohol levels that you just described that can be anywhere? Is it a portable --

Are you okay, Todd?

Yeah. I'm fine. Sorry.

Just want to be sure. I've got masks in the kitchen. But it's nothing?

Go ahead. BY MS. GORDON:

Go ahead.

It's a preliminary breath test. It's a handheld device about this big that -- that's what it is.

So you could take that anywhere in the building --

Yes.

-- before somebody is released?

Yes.

And that happens? That's been done. You just described somebody --

Yes.

-- was being held in a room?

Yes, yes, yes.

And somebody was able to -- if they wanted to, they would go in there and administer the test, correct?

Correct.

Okay. You have a truthfulness policy at the

Yes.

And the truthfulness policy has to do with ensuring that when any employee is questioned by a supervisor or other members within the department, they answer in a truthful manner; is that correct?

Again, if you're reading off a document -- I know that it's meant to make sure that people are honest when asked about information.

That's by anybody that's their superior --

Correct.

-- is that correct? That's whether you're in an official meeting or whether you're out on the road or wherever, correct?

Anywhere, correct, yes.

And you have something called a loyalty policy; is that correct?

Correct.

Are you familiar with it?

I'm not -- I'm not intimately familiar with the phrases and words in it. I know the roundabout idea behind it.

Since you've been sheriff, has anybody been disciplined for violating the loyalty policy?

I don't think so.

Since you've been sheriff, has anybody been disciplined for violating the truthfulness policy?

There was an instance where an individual retired instead of facing continued investigation. You referenced the honesty -- I'm sorry. Was that the loyalty or honesty?

We were talking about the honesty.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm sorry. Yes.

Who was that?

He wasn't disciplined, though. He retired. But he was looking at discipline.

Was there an open investigation?

Yes.

What was the nature of his dishonesty?

He was asked questions during an internal investigation, and it was found later that it looked like he was not honest with his responses to those questions.

Is that a terminable offense?

Yes.

Is any dishonesty -- can it be a terminable offense?

"Any" is a word I don't like to use, but, in general, dishonesty in an internal investigation is a terminable offense, yes.

Okay. So instead, it was worked out that he would retire instead of going forward with the investigation?

He showed up, and -- as a matter of fact, he thought he was going to get fired, and he wasn't. And he resigned on the spot, and it was his decision. It was nothing we had brought up before.

Did he have a union representative?

Yes.

Who was that, if you remember?

Man, I --

Can't remember?

I can't, no. Sorry.

Okay. Anybody other than this individual --

For honesty?

Yes. -- who has left the department?

There was another individual who resigned totally out of the blue during an internal investigation. And, again, he stated he just didn't want to work there anymore because he knew nobody respected him.

What was he being investigated for?

Failure to, basically, perform his -- failure for performance. And then in the internal, he wasn't completely honest with his questions either.

Okay. That must have been brought to his attention, I assume?

No. It never even got to that point. It was bizarre. I was in my office. He came in with a Carhartt and an old t-shirt on and handed me a letter resignation.

So he must have seen the handwriting on the wall possibly.

That's not what he said. He left because he knew nobody respected him. He didn't want to work somewhere where it was stressful.

Who was this?

That was

Okay. How did you get along with

I got along with him well. I tried to coach him up out of the drug task force. I knew he had talent, but his consistency was off. But when I became road patrol captain, I was charged with some internals he did not like.

What does that mean?

There was an internal investigation that was reopened up, and he didn't like the fact that it was reopened up and that I found discipline on him for those actions.

Okay. So he left voluntarily?

Yeah. And that internal that I'm speaking of, that

And you have a discipline policy; is that correct?

Yes.

And you have the exclusive right to mete out disciplinary action, correct, you, as the elected sheriff?

Correct.

And you used progressive discipline; is that correct?

Yes.

The sole purpose of discipline is to be corrective in nature; is that correct?

Yes.

What do you take into account when you're deciding discipline? What are the factors that you're going to look at for any given employee -- well, strike that. Let me ask a prefatory question. Since you've been the elected sheriff, how many people have been disciplined on your watch?

I mean, I'd have to guess three or four a year. It's been four and a half years. So probably about 15 to 20.

Okay. And you've decided those disciplines?

And I should say, those are ones that rose up to me. Because on a shift level, there's certain things that

Things that are more minor?

Correct, yes.

Okay. And they handle it at the time of or in their own manner?

Sure. Yes.

Give me just an example of that what that would be.

The first time somebody came into work late, they're given a verbal warning.

What rises up to you?

If there's continual problems with the same employee doing the same thing, continual problems with an employee doing different things, or major incidents.

What do you --

I shouldn't say "major," but more moderate-to-above incidents.

Give me a couple of examples of what you've experienced in that regard that's come up to you.

Well, somebody abusing sick time.

Would it have to be more than once?

Yeah, yes.

Okay.

Again, probably like continued -- I'm trying to -- everything is flooding together. Continued actions

Okay. So let's go through the disciplines you can remember being involved in.

Okay.

Because from what you're telling me, not everything rises up to you. How many disciplines have you personally been involved in in the last couple of years?

The last couple of years?

Well, remind me when you were elected.

2020 I started.

When did you take office?

2021. I'm sorry.

You took office in 2021?

Yes, yes.

So that's about four years?

Yes.

So how many people have you actually disciplined, you know, because you have the authority to do so and you've done it in the last four years, as compared to

I think probably around 15 or 20.

Okay. And have you used verbal counseling for any of those people?

Yes.

Roughly, how many?

Probably five or six.

And then you have a written reprimand; is that correct?

Correct.

And roughly how often have you used that for this group of people you're talking about?

I would probably say the majority. Probably about 12.

Okay. Anybody that you've given a suspension to?

Yes, yes.

How many times has that happened?

Probably five or six, I think.

What would that be for?

Again, the same problem over and over or something really egregious. There was a deputy who took his gun out and basically was playing with his gun on duty, joking around with it. He got suspended. Abuse of sick time, there was a deputy that got suspended for it. Use of force. There was a deputy that had improper use of force.

As to a citizen?

Yes, and he was suspended. Those are the ones that come to mind.

Okay. And then the next level is dismissal. Who's been dismissed?

I haven't fired anybody. I shouldn't say that. For investigation, there was one or two that didn't make it through the field training program. That was a probationary release.

Okay. So other than probationary releases, you have not actually terminated anybody?

Correct.

But you've had people resign during investigation; is that accurate?

Yes.

Okay. And how many times has that happened?

Three.

Okay. So let's go through those.

Okay.

You can pick any order. Give me the three.

Okay. I'll start -- I'll start with, I think, the furthest back. I think I've got them in chronological order. .

Remind me what he did.

was involved in -- he was a sergeant. And

And what was he not truthful about?

It was something to do with the investigation, during the internal investigation, being questioned by the person doing the internal. I don't remember what the exact --

Was the investigation over at the time he resigned?

Yes.

Had findings been made?

Yes. He was going to be disciplined that day. He thought he was going to get fired, but he wasn't.

So findings had been made, and -- as I understand it, your findings are put into a written --